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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 17:35 
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EuropeanAction wrote:
Besoeker wrote:
I never cared for the Thatcher style.
But confrontation requires two sides.

I do think the unions got a bad rap at times by government and press. Red Robbo was an example of that.
But union leaders who ignore the result of members' ballots doesn't seem to me to be the way to go.


Two sides, yes. The right side and the wrong side. It's a moral issue.

Balloting isn't the issue here. It's people's livelihoods and their communities.

Kent still bears the scars.

I don't either side was particularly moral.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 17:45 
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Besoeker wrote:
I don't either side was particularly moral.


Sitting on the fence is the position of the amoral.

Those fighting for jobs and their communities are always in the right.

It is called social justice.

The other side were greedy capitalists with total contempt for the workers.

You know nothing of morality, Besoeker.

Why are you on a politics forum?



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 18:29 
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In a dispute, things are rarely as black and white as you might wish them to be or suggest that they are. To think otherwise is simply naive.
Certainly, capitalists will want a return on their investment in monetary and time investment.
Without that, their businesses simply wouldn't exist. Nor the jobs for those downtrodden workers. Or rather unemployed downtrodden non-workers.

You simply can't fight for jobs that don't exist.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 18:48 
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Besoeker wrote:
In a dispute, things are rarely as black and white as you might wish them to be or suggest that they are. To think otherwise is simply naive.
Certainly, capitalists will want a return on their investment in monetary and time investment.
Without that, their businesses simply wouldn't exist. Nor the jobs for those downtrodden workers. Or rather unemployed downtrodden non-workers.

You simply can't fight for jobs that don't exist.


What a load of immature b*ll*cks.

Issues are often black and white, right or wrong, good or bad. There are no grey areas in important social issues.

Wealth is created by the labour of the workers. True wealth is goods produced. It is only right that those who do the real work should have the biggest say in who gets the rewards.

It is a form of socialism called guild socialism. Collectively, the workers should be the real power.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 20:21 
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As ever, you exude charm. But seem to ignore facts.
The miners held the country to ransom more than once. I'm sure you are old enough to remember the winter of discontent. And events that hurt everyone. An attempt to curb inflation which was getting on for record levels..sensible policy one might think.

Almost every aspect of public life was disrupted. For what?
Orginasitions being forced to make outrageous pay increases and Joe Public having to fund them. Shotgun and head come to mind.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 20:25 
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Besoeker wrote:
As ever, you exude charm. But seem to ignore facts.
The miners held the country to ransom more than once. I'm sure you are old enough to remember the winter of discontent. And events that hurt everyone. An attempt to curb inflation which was getting on for record levels..sensible policy one might think.

Almost every aspect of public life was disrupted. For what?
Orginasitions being forced to make outrageous pay increases and Joe Public having to fund them. Shotgun and head come to mind.


That was another separate issue.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 21:12 
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Besoeker, you are banned for one month.

Reason? Being frivolous and vexatious.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 21:19 
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tdave wrote:
EuropeanAction I agree that what is needed is a new type of state one that seeks to fuse the interests of owners, workers and consumers in one and that maintains both profitability as well as social welfare. The question being that as there are no signs of this perspective being supported today by the bulk, or even a minority of people, what can we do to put people on the right path? Should we be looking to support the idea of a living wage? Or is this just playing the game?

How do we also overcome the little islander mentality and replace it with a pan European identity one that brings all Europeans together to work for the common good safe behind a self contained pan European economic zone.


The day will come when Euro-scepticism and petty nationalism will be seen as the divisive and negative view it truly is. Already Ukip is faltering. The Janice Atkinson MEP woman has now been suspended by Ukip for financial irregularities. She was the Ukip MEP who referred to a "ting tong from somewhere". Another Ukip candidate has resigned from the party due to its rampant racism and bullying. There's more to come.

Wait for them to disappear up their own rectums and our day will dawn. The people will then be ready for us. They will be prepared to listen to us after the reactionaries have gone down the plug hole.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2015, 23:17 

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Hope that your right EuropeanAction about UKIP and the rest of the narrow right will disappear when their petty programmes have been shown to have failed to meet the real needs of the people not only of the UK but of Europe.

One question though on the question of workers control of large companies. What happens if the owners refuse to give up their companies will the state simply appropriate them? Or will they be paid a fair price for their shares? Maybe the way forward is to use a new corporate state to ensure that all of the profits are fairly distributed.


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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2015, 10:37 
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tdave wrote:
Hope that your right EuropeanAction about UKIP and the rest of the narrow right will disappear when their petty programmes have been shown to have failed to meet the real needs of the people not only of the UK but of Europe.

One question though on the question of workers control of large companies. What happens if the owners refuse to give up their companies will the state simply appropriate them? Or will they be paid a fair price for their shares? Maybe the way forward is to use a new corporate state to ensure that all of the profits are fairly distributed.


The company will be syndicalised as a matter of state policy through a law. It is not a question of cohersion, at all.

The former owners would be hugely rewarded, to be fair.

Profits should be given back to the firm or industry for further growth. The only shareholders should be the workers within that firm.

By workers, we include the managers and those office workers directly involved.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 20 Mar 2015, 22:52 

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In this coming election we can see very few people will benefit from the results that is apart from those MP's elected, the bankers and the 1% whose pockets will be lined. We have already seen Balls promise to carry out the Tories austerity policies. So where is the choice? There is none and that will leave the bulk of the people feeling excluded and impotent.

There has to come a day when an alternative is offered to the people which breaks with the past and seeks a new renewal based on using the huge wealth not only in the UK but also across Europe, a wealth that is created by workers and should be used for the benefit of society.


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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2015, 10:16 
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To us, the total compliance with the "deficit" myth is glaringly obvious but most of the electorate think this a normal aspect to their lives. They really believe ordinary people must suffer for the greater good of the usurers. All of the political parties pay lip service to this racket.

It is never really questioned by the mainstream media because the Money Power owns it. That is the greatest obstacle.

I print and publish a news sheet to counter this but it seems like a pee in the ocean. Nevertheless, we are reminded of Martin Luther's famous saying, "Here I stand. I can do no other". We have a duty to do the best we can.



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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 07 May 2015, 16:56 

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Well after what seems like a long six weeks the election is upon us and it looks as if there is a wafer thin distance between the Tories and Labour. Whatever happens I suspect that both parties will pursue the whims of the international bankers.

One thing was surprising to me and that was throughout the election there was hardly any mention made of Europe. This is one of the big issues for today whether there is a Britain exit looming as the right and UKIP would prefer or whether there is simply business as usual as Labour would prefer. Both options are bankrupt.


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 Post subject: Re: To vote or not in 2015?
PostPosted: 07 May 2015, 17:55 
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tdave wrote:
Well after what seems like a long six weeks the election is upon us and it looks as if there is a wafer thin distance between the Tories and Labour. Whatever happens I suspect that both parties will pursue the whims of the international bankers.

One thing was surprising to me and that was throughout the election there was hardly any mention made of Europe. This is one of the big issues for today whether there is a Britain exit looming as the right and UKIP would prefer or whether there is simply business as usual as Labour would prefer. Both options are bankrupt.

They all "pursue the whims of the international bankers" because they all subscribe to this idea of reducing the deficit. Surely one of the biggest scams in human history.

Europe has been brought into it by way of reference to a proposed in/out referendum. Most of the parties subscribe to retaining membership of the European Union with the sole exception of Ukip.

It is now predicted that Farage's bid for a seat in the Commons will be a total failure. I hope so as he is standing in my constituency.



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